[Featuring GIFs from the show Maron!]
This week, we return to discussing the podcast titled You’re Doing It Wrong: A Podcast About Love and Other Lunacies and revealing romantic secrets!
Because we had such fun, enlightening, informal chats about love and dating, the four of us—Ivey, Pumpkins, Peacock, and me—decided to start our own podcast. We’ll share our genius advice and gut-busting anecdotes with the world! We’ll change lives and become celebrities and heroes, revered by all!
We were super low-budget. I didn’t even have a proper mic the first time around and I sounded like a shrill, tinny gnat buzzing around in the background. We all logged into Skype at the same time, I pressed the record button on the free MP3 Skype Recorder program, and we chatted away.
In later episodes, I wore a headset mic and we recorded ourselves individually using Audacity. We would count down and all hit our individual record buttons at the same time to keep it all synchronized. Afterward, we’d send our individual files to whoever was going to edit the episode (usually me). However, I still let the MP3 Skype Recorder run in the background. Good thing, too—some of the individual files are now missing or incorrectly titled. I’m still sifting through the wreckage.
By the time of our first recording, it had been a couple months after Peacock sent me an email, admitting that he was into me. But I just didn’t feel the same. I had a great time with him, he made me laugh, but I couldn’t picture us as a couple. He was also slightly older than me, and I’ve never been into older dudes; they tend to treat me like a naive child, someone they can know better than and pat on the head. Also, I never thought about what it’d be like to kiss him, which seems like kind of an important part of getting romantic with someone.
Besides, I was already hardcore pining for someone else. It was my driving force behind wanting to do the podcast in the first place! I wanted a project to distract me from my crush. I wanted a project that would help me somehow simultaneously get over the guy and win his heart. I’m a complicated lady.
Because Ivey and I liked to turn everything into a premise for a show (or, at the very least, a reason to harshly judge celebrity guys), we envisioned what would happen if the behind-the-scenes happenings of the podcast was picked up by the CW. So on this new drama about four people doing a podcast, the Peacock character would pine for the Stef character, who’d already be pining for some other guy. Then, in the season finale, Stef’s crush would speak up at the live show and be like, “Stef? I love you,” and everyone would be all, “DUN DUN DUN!”
In the following season, Peacock’s attentions and flirtations would shift to the podcast guests, including porn stars and sex therapists. The Stef character would get miffed that Peacock wasn’t indulging her questions like he used to; instead, he’d be focusing on the sex therapist/porn star detail how to give the perfect blow job. Meanwhile, Pumpkins would be “the sensitive soul,” and Ivey would drink coffee and provide “keep it real” advice that would eventually turn into “Just take LSD and see” when she was all tapped out of ideas.
Meanwhile, in real life, Pumpkins created a Facebook group for us to bandy about ideas. Ivey fretted about what we would talk about if we don’t have input from listeners, but I had so many topics rattling around in my brain. For example, I wanted to have a conversation on the perfect number of sexual partners, inspired by The Raconteur‘s recent insistence to me about how he needed to up his own. We could talk about deal-breakers and –makers, and things you should never tell your lovah (e.g., you drove past their house to see if they were home). I knew that my perpetual confusion about relationships would always give us something to debate about.
On Feb. 10, 2011, the four of us had our first chitty-chat for our podcast. I felt nervous so I had to drink a beer. After some technological issues, we got down to biz with our first-ever topic: “What is a date?” I proposed this topic because quite frankly, I never really knew whether I was on a date or not. (For example, Honey Bear and I retroactively declared our first solo hangfest at a coffee shop our first date, but I wasn’t sure at the time, even though he did buy my tea.)
This heterosexual-focused podcast episode topics deviated into several other date-related subtopics, such as who does the asking, who does the follow-up, and so on. Ivey enjoyed aggravating Peacock by saying the guy should do all the work, and she introduced her no-acceptance-of-Saturday-dates-after-Wednesday rule. (One mustn’t appear too available, you see.)
Overall, it went really well. Afterward, I was aghast at how often I say the word “like”—and for no reason! I was closing sentences with it, opening them with it, putting it in the middle… Aghast, I tell you. I vowed to be more conscious of that, in an effort to appear more eloquent.
Another thing I noticed was how I was the only one without any hard and fast opinions on things. I was mostly generating questions while the others answered them. But it was and still is difficult for me to be concrete regarding decision making. I feel there are always exceptions.
Besides, like I said, I didn’t really know what I was doing re: love and all that jazz. No one ever asked me for my opinion on relationships, so I was used to being the one having all the questions and then thinking up different what-if facets for the situation. I hoped to form firmer opinions as the podcast continued.
And now, here is the transcript from that first podcast episode, edited for superfluous “likes”! Be warned: Your mouse/scrolling finger may get tired!
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Podcast 1: “What Is a Date?”
“Wanna Hang Out?”
STEF: My definition of a date is sort of weird. There should be two locations to go to. I need a combo! Like “dinner and a movie,” or a “something and a something else.” Just a dinner—I don’t know if that’s a date.
IVEY: What if it’s a really fancy dinner and you spend three hours there?
STEF: That was my exception for the combo rule: if you’re in one place for an extended period of time.
IVEY: What if you’re too drunk to go to the second location?
STEF: I don’t know if that’s a good date.
PUMPKINS: So the whole time you’re wondering if you’re going to be paying your half of the bill?
STEF: Yeah!
PEACOCK: If you’re out somewhere, and you want to be on a date but you’re unsure if it is, if the dude doesn’t offer to pay, then it’s not a date.
STEF: So the second the guy pays, it is a date?
PEACOCK: It’s at least an indication. Now, you can sit there and insist, “No, I’ll pay half,” and then it is not a date, because then the guy’s like, “Aw, damn.”
IVEY: If you’re at a restaurant, and right before the check comes, get up and go to the bathroom. Then he has to pay!
PUMPKINS: Wow!
PEACOCK: That gets you nowhere discovering if it’s a date or not!
PUMPKINS: Hopefully he’ll be man enough to actually say, “We’re going out on a date.” Otherwise it’s like, “What the heck are we doing here?” I wouldn’t want to waste my time with that business.
IVEY: I think some guys just always pay because they’re just nice guys.
PUMPKINS: Yeah, I do that, I’m a nice guy!
STEF: So how does a girl know she’s on a date with you, Pumpkins?
PUMPKINS: I will make it very clear.
STEF: How?
PUMPKINS: I will ask her on a date.
STEF: “Will you go on a date with me?”
PUMPKINS: Well, I don’t know the exact wording, but it wouldn’t just be like, “Wanna hang out?”
STEF: What are ways to convey it’s a date if you don’t flat-out ask, “Will you go on a date with me?”
IVEY: And I have to say, nine times out of ten, the guy does say, “You wanna hang out?”
PUMPKINS: I’d make it at least obvious. I’d at least show interest, I wouldn’t just say, “You wanna go eat somewhere?” I go and eat with a lot of people…. I always pay. That doesn’t mean I like you. Sorry, Peacock.
PEACOCK: No, I get it, it just means you’re trying to get laid.
“The Guy Should Do All the Work”
IVEY: I think another must is that he has to pick you up. If he just says, “Meet me for a drink,” then it’s not a date.
PEACOCK: I would say that in many situations, that would be totally correct. But where I live now, I know everybody around here, I grew up around here, I wouldn’t want to date anybody around here. So if I meet somebody that’s farther away, and the place we end up going is really not close to either of us, then I’m not going to drive an hour and a half to pick somebody up to drive another half hour to go somewhere to drive another half hour to bring her back home., and then another hour and a half to ride back home by myself, especially if the date sucked.
IVEY: But that’s an unusual circumstance. Let’s say you’re two people who live in the same town within a half hour of each other. I don’t think that just because he picks you up it’s a date, but if he does not pick you up, it’s not a date.
PEACOCK: I’ve gotten picked up for dates though.
IVEY: The girl has picked you up?
PEACOCK: Yeah, we’ll just be talking about what we’re gonna do, and she’ll be like, “Hey, cool, how ‘bout I swing by around whenever—”
IVEY: Oh, no.
STEF: Ivey’s like, “That hussy!” Can’t bring that girl home to Mom!
IVEY: Exactly! She ain’t worth it. Those are just my standards.
PEACOCK: “Let me pick you up and we’ll go someplace that I have no interest in but it’s cool, because I know you like it”—that’s a date.
IVEY: That’s definitely a date. I think the level of proactiveness on the guy’s part—
PEACOCK: Why’s it always gotta be the guy’s part?
IVEY: Because the guy should do all the work!
PUMPKINS: Wow!
PEACOCK: As long as she does all the cleaning and cooking, that’s cool!
IVEY: If the guy is proactive and he comes up with the idea, and pursues you, and does the asking out, and does the paying and the picking-up, then it’s all a date.
PUMPKINS: I would agree with that.
IVEY: On the other hand, if he was like, “We should hang out sometime, text me, whatevs, we’ll meet up,” then no.
STEF: Does it ever count when a girl initiates anything?
PEACOCK: It definitely should.
PUMPKINS: There should be some body language. You should be able to tell if someone’s just like, “I’m bored, you wanna hang out?” and someone who actually seems interested in you.
PEACOCK: I think it’s really the same signs. Is she all of a sudden like “Let’s do something you like and I really have zero interest in,” or, on a fresh-start kinda thing, a random, “Let’s go do something tonight”? Things like that, I think, definitely.
STEF: But how do you tell if that’s different than just a hang?
PEACOCK: Maybe I’m different here, but it’s not Facebook in real life—who’s going out there to just add friends?
IVEY: Right, past a certain age, when you’re finished with college, you’re saying, “What’s the point of collecting opposite-sex friends?”
PEACOCK: Yeah, because at some point or another, you’re gonna run into that awkward thing anyway. That’s just people. But even outside of opposite-sex friends, I don’t even look for new dudes to hang out with.
STEF: It definitely gets hard to make friends with anybody after college.
PEACOCK: Not only is it more difficult, I just have zero interest in it. I mean, if it happens, then that’s cool, but I’m never out, meeting someone, going, “Oh, you know? I definitely want to keep in touch this person, I want to be new friends.” For me, friendship just has to happen naturally. I’m never actively pursuing a friendship.
PUMPKINS: I think for a date, it should at least be something that seems out of place or something that isn’t normal.
STEF: I like how the indicator of it being a date is “something weird is going on.”
IVEY: “I feel uncomfortable. It must be a date.”
PEACOCK: God forbid if I actually ever started dating somebody who is currently attends [the bar I regularly go to]. But if that ever happens, “Hey, let’s go hang out at [the bar]” would not constitute a date. It would constitute, “Let’s get so liquored up that there’s a chance I’m gonna get you in bed tonight.” If I’m like, “Let’s go someplace outside of [the bar] where none of our friends are at and it’s just the two of us,” yeah, that’s a date.
Stef and the Closet Rose
IVEY: I did some research! I found some pointers where you could tell if it’s a date and if it’s not a date. This says, “It’s a date if he asks using the phrase, ‘Have dinner with me.’” I enjoy the command!
PEACOCK: Yeah, that’s a sales technique. You don’t ask open-ended questions. You don’t say, “Can I have your credit card number?” on the phone when you’re trying to sell somebody something. You just say, “Okay, now, give me your credit card number,” and people feel more obliged to go ahead and actually do it.
IVEY: You don’t give them the chance to say no. Wait, that’s kind of rapey.
PUMPKINS: Yeah, it is. “You don’t have mace, do you?”
IVEY: The next one is, “He brings you flowers.”
PEACOCK: Well, that would be a clear indicator.
PUMPKINS: Yeah, because I would never bring my friends flowers.
IVEY: Stef, has a guy ever brought you flowers on a first date?
STEF: I was just thinking about that. I’m transitioning here a little bit, but: Is it a date if you go to the guy’s house right off the bat?
PUMPKINS: “Wow, that was an easy way! No need for dinner, we’re already here! I just saved fifty dollars!”
STEF: No, so, I hadn’t met the guy before, but he was like, “Come over and have a beer.” So I did, and we were just chitty-chatting, and then I was going to leave, and he’s like, “Do you want to hang out again?” I’m like, “All right, sure.” Now I thought we were just hanging out because I already told him I wasn’t interested, so I thought that he knew that. But he’s like, “Oh, okay, great!” and opens the closet and busts out this rose in a glass vase, and he’s like, “Here, it’s for you!” So, I guess sort of [someone gave me flowers on a date], but I didn’t realize it was a date. Was it?
PEACOCK: No. That’s just creepy. If I’m like, “Why don’t you come over my house and have a beer?” then really there’s no intention of dating there. At all.
PUMPKINS: Unless you were really, really off your rocker.
STEF: So I guess no, [no one’s ever given me flowers on a date] then?
PUMPKINS: Maybe yes in his mind! But no in reality.
PEACOCK: No, not a real date. That was a set-up for roofies or something.
IVEY: Did you say the rose came out of a closet?
STEF: Yes!
IVEY: “Let me reach into my closet of flowers…” Who keeps a rose in a closet?
STEF: I guess he didn’t want me to see it.
PUMPKINS: What if he had it there for hours and was all antsy about giving it to her the whole night?
STEF: I think he was. What if I was like, “No, I don’t want to hang out again”? Then I wouldn’t have gotten the rose.
PEACOCK: Was he nine?!
PUMPKINS: I know, right? She [gets] this crayon Valentine.
STEF: It was just uncomfy. And then, when I went to leave, I’m like, oh, hug goodbye, and then he kissed me. And I’m like, “Ahh!” and I ran away.
PEACOCK: Wait, hold on. You’re like, “Let me initiate physical contact here with a hug,” and then when he’s like, “Oh, this must mean it’s my time to kiss,” you went “Eeee!” and ran away? That’s horrible—you should’ve just been like, “Okay, see you later,” and gave the handshake.
STEF: I didn’t realize… It happened so fast.
PEACOCK: You can’t give random hugs out.
IVEY: I think running away was a good move.
STEF: I went home and was like, “Why, why?!” I thought that I was clear but I guess I was not.
PUMPKINS: I’m a firm believer of if they don’t get it, you have to hurt their feelings.
STEF: What if they’re like, “Come over, I’ll make you dinner”? Is that a date?
PEACOCK: Oh, yeah! And they’re trying to get some.
IVEY: Yeah, that’s like, third date material.
PUMPKINS: “Let me make you dinner and let’s cuddle up with a movie on the couch.”
STEF: This is what happened with this guy. Initially he texted me, “Hey, let’s hang out, whatever,” and I’m like, “Fine.” I had already made it clear how I felt—so I thought. And he’s like, “I’ll make something to eat! What do you want?” and I was like, “I don’t know. Pancakes,” and he’s like, “That’s an interesting choice.” So I went over there, and he had the pancakes all fanned out all around the plate.
PUMPKINS: …Wow. Was this guy allowed to leave his house? He must’ve had this dreamed up in his head for a long time. “I’ll make her pancakes, I’ll give her my closet rose…”
STEF: I thought that suggesting pancakes would be fun and quirky and casual—
PEACOCK: No! That’s just an awkward-ass situation in itself!
STEF: I didn’t know what to do! Wait, so hold up, you guys said I wasn’t on a date initially, but now that you know that he made me food, does that make it a date?
PEACOCK: First off, if he said, “Come on over, I’ll cook you dinner,” then initially that’s a date. Now if you get there and he’s like, “Surprise! I’m gonna cook you stuff,” then the holy-crap-I’m-on-a-date scenario should kick in. Because if I had a chick over here and I wasn’t planning a date, and we’re like, “Hey, wow, we’re hungry,” and I said, “I could cook something,” and she said, “Yeah, sure,” that still wouldn’t be in a date scenario. That’s just us going, “We don’t really feel like ordering out so let’s cook something.”
IVEY: Is cooking for a girl a definite date?
PUMPKINS: In the beginning it would be.
PEACOCK: If before you get over there I say I’m gonna cook for you, yeah.
IVEY: Stef, you were not into this guy going into the evening, right?
STEF: Correct.
IVEY: [Peacock and Pumpkins,] should she have said no altogether?
STEF: “No, don’t make me food”? “No, I don’t want to hang out?”
PUMPKINS: No, don’t go in that guy’s house!
PEACOCK: If he said that he was gonna cook before you went over there, you shouldn’t have went over. I don’t know if you said you accepted the rose or not—you shouldn’t have. You definitely shouldn’t have initiated the hug. And when he said that he was gonna cook, you should’ve said, “I’m not hungry.” So basically what you did was tell this guy, “I am so cool with this date right now.”
IVEY: She gave him the green light.
PEACOCK: Oh, absolutely.
STEF: I accepted going over there, having thought that we were just going to be friends. I had told him I’m not in a romantic place.
PUMPKINS: Guys don’t understand.
STEF: Clearly!
IVEY: He thought he could change your mind.
PEACOCK: It’s not like you [women] have trained us to actually trust the words that come out of your mouths.
STEF: How do we that? An idea for another podcast.
IVEY: “Wait ‘til she sees my rose I have in this closet! She’ll change her mind.”
PUMPKINS: I hope that guy has progressed past closet roses.
PEACOCK: After that, he might’ve regressed! He’s probably gay.
STEF: Now that it’s clear that it’s all my fault…
PUMPKINS: Hey, we all make mistakes. Some greater than others.
The Sex and Intimacy Barrier
IVEY: Next on this list, one of the things that he does where you know it’s a date is he makes at least one attempt at physical affection. So the question is, if he does not, then is it not a date?
PEACOCK: There’s a whole lot going on as far as crossing that physical barrier.
PUMPKINS: He could just be a wimp.
PEACOCK: That’s for sure.
IVEY: [This says] it could be hair touching, putting his arm around you, or kissing.
PUMPKINS: Kissing would be a pretty good giveaway.
STEF: So it has to be clearly romantic touching.
PEACOCK: Anything that not completely joking around. Punches in the shoulder—that doesn’t count. Tackles count, though, because tackles get you in an on-top, on-bottom position.
STEF: When you’re in an established relationship, is everything you do a date?
PUMPKINS: I think dating is more of thing where you lead up to going out with somebody. But you could still have dates. I still liked having dates when I was in a relationship, ‘cause she’s still my lady!
PEACOCK: I think a date is something that happens outside of a relationship, because when you’re in a relationship and you go on a quote-unquote date night, you’re really just trying to kick back to the days when you actually wooed each other instead of put up with each other’s shit.
IVEY: I think once you’re in a relationship, you don’t need to worry about, “Is this a date?” The intentions have been made clear. You’re just having a date night to feel romantic.
PUMPKINS: Once you get past the sex and intimacy barrier, it’s pretty obvious.
PEACOCK: Yeah, because it’s gonna continue in one or two ways. You’re gonna continue into a relationship, or it’s gonna continue into “Let’s just call each other when we want to have sex.”
PUMPKINS: Once that sex barrier is broken, you either want to continue down that road or not, and if it’s obvious that it’s not, then I’m not going to invest date money in you. It’s not even just money—it’s money and time and hopes and all that kind of business. You’re not getting any of that. You’re just getting the penis.
IVEY: What if you have sex on the first date?
PUMPKINS: Whoo hoo!
PEACOCK: That cuts out a lot of time!
PUMPKINS: I always had a bad habit of, in the relationships I had, having sex too soon. But I do know it is better to not do that and get to know the person first, like their favorite color and stuff.
PEACOCK: I don’t really have a problem having sex on the first date, but I do realize I don’t enjoy relationships with the people I have sex with on the first date.
PUMPKINS: I think the problem is, at least for me, if I have sex with someone too soon, it creates almost this false sense of intimacy with the person, where I feel really close to them, but I barely know them.
IVEY: If you do have sex on the first date, do you still feel obligated to woo her? Or are you done, ‘cause you got it?
PUMPKINS: Depends if I wanna keep it!
PEACOCK: Depends if I want to be in a relationship or not.
STEF: And sex speeds that up, right, according to you guys? You said that the moment you have sex, right afterward it becomes a relationship or getting together to do it.
PUMPKINS: Or it just stops. That might be a good point to be like, “Hey, we should kind of be together,” and stuff.
PUMPKINS: “Yeah, we’re hanging out all the time, having sex, going doing stuff. You wanna make this exclusive?”
PEACOCK: I definitely draw that line. I definitely ask that question. The rules change.
PUMPKINS: For me, when I get emotionally involved, I like to know that I’m the only one [they’re seeing], there isn’t this slew of male suitors out there. I want that locked in for me.
STEF: I definitely need things spelled out for me. I don’t like having to do guesswork.
PUMPKINS: Me neither.
PEACOCK: Within a day or two after having sex, that should probably be discussed. Otherwise, it’ll likely just turn into a booty thing or never happen again.
Instant Chemistry
IVEY: What if, Stef, you have sex on the first date or early on and it sucks? Then what?
STEF: Regardless of sex or not, I’m always afraid that I’m going to start dating someone and then find out I don’t like them, and then I wasted time—everyone’s time—and I sort of freak out.
PEACOCK: But that’s how you get to know people: by being around them all the time.
PUMPKINS: As you said, independent of sex, that’s the whole purpose of dating someone: to figure out if they’re for you or not. And it’s not exclusive, so you can drop it at any time.
PEACOCK: I was married. I was with the same person for five years, and then at the end of that, I was like, “Oh my God, I hate this person, this was such a mistake.” I didn’t want to be with them. So that whole five years wasn’t enough prep time for that. So how can you really say [what won’t work out or not]?
PUMPKINS: It’s all a risk.
STEF: Don’t you think there has to be immediate attraction?
PUMPKINS: Yeah.
PEACOCK: No.
PUMPKINS: I’m not gonna sleep with someone I’m not attracted to. Okay, most of the time I’m not gonna sleep with someone I’m not attracted to.
STEF: I mean just dating. I was not into Pancake Boy to start, but everyone’s like, “Oh, just see, just see, people can grow into it.” But I don’t know about that.
PEACOCK: To be into somebody right off the bat, typically they need to be just physically ridiculously attractive, because I don’t know this person. But I’ve met insanely hot women before, and I’ve talked to them for ten minutes, and they became the ugliest person I’ve ever met in my life. The opposite’s happened also.
STEF: It’s not even a matter of just being physically attractive. I mean instant chemistry and all that jazz.
PEACOCK: How do you get instant chemistry without being around somebody and hanging out?
PUMPKINS: Initially, you gotta have some sort of notion that you want to be around this person or you might want to learn more about them. If you don’t have that interest, what’re you doing? You might as well just watch TV.
PEACOCK: There has to be some natural curiosity about the other individual. Otherwise, you’re kind just forcing it.
IVEY: There doesn’t have to be necessarily instant chemistry or attraction, but there needs to be intrigue, where you want to know more.
Post-Date Protocol
STEF: Let’s talk about after the date. Guys, do you do the whole wait-three-days-and-then-call, or what’s the protocol?
PUMPKINS: I’m not good at any of the waiting stuff. I’m always too quick to say what’s going on with me.
PEACOCK: I’ll analyze the entire date and then determine what needs to be done afterward. Is her schedule busy? Did she comment about somebody calling too soon? Does she even like talking on the phone? It really depends on what was said the night before.
STEF: I would get pissed if someone waited three days—even more than twenty-four hours—without any kind of follow-up.
PEACOCK: It depends on context though. Let’s say I went on a date tonight. We’re talking about our jobs and our friends and what’s going on in life and all that kind of happy crap, and I say, “My work’s really busy this week, it’s getting pretty insane, I’m helping my buddy move Friday and then we’re gonna go out on Saturday and it’s gonna be crazy.” If I didn’t hear anything from her until like Saturday or Sunday, I wouldn’t really sweat it too much, because I just got done telling her how busy I was with a bunch of things. But at the same time, if I got a random text message that’s just like, “Hey, what’s up, how’s your day going?”—okay, that’s cool too.
PUMPKINS: For me, if I go out on a date with someone, and I really enjoyed it, I want to have more contact with this person, and I also want to find out that that’s reciprocated.
STEF: If I’m into the person, I wanna get something going.
PUMPKINS: I really think it’s situational. I don’t know that the three-days waiting period really even matters.
PEACOCK: Out of all of us here, how many of us have been in that situation where we’ve gone on a date and had no idea or expectations about when the next contact point was? I usually end the date with “Hey, so I’ll give you a buzz this week.”
STEF: What do you say if the date does not go well?
PEACOCK: And I don’t want to be with her? I’d be like, “Hey, thanks, I’ll see you later.”
IVEY: Then don’t call her.
PEACOCK: Yeah.
STEF: Don’t you think that some guys make empty promises—”Oh, I’ll call you”—because they don’t know what else to say?
PEACOCK: Yeah. If I was in that situation and I didn’t want to go on a date with her, and she’s like, “Oh, should I call you this week?” I would definitely squirm around.
IVEY: And if he says, “Oh, I’ll call you,” and then he doesn’t call, then he doesn’t like you. And [ladies,] don’t call.
STEF: Peacock is saying, “I’m so busy, I can’t call you,” but according to the book [He’s Just Not That into You], if he wants you bad enough, he will make the effort to call.
IVEY: If he’s out of town or truly busy, then yeah. If he gives you a kind of timetable, then I think that he is into you. But if he’s just like, “I’m really busy so we’ll see,” then he’s not.
PEACOCK: Under those circumstances, I would agree.
PUMPKINS: I think if I’m on a date with someone, I want to let them know I want to contact them later in the future. If you’re interested in someone and you want to continue that, [you should] at least hint at that. You gotta talk about something during the date so you would’ve picked up something along those lines.
STEF: Who should contact who after the date? Who should do the follow-up?
IVEY: The guy.
PUMPKINS: I’m the firm believer of the man doing it.
PEACOCK: Whoever. It doesn’t matter.
PUMPKINS: It’s usually me, but I’m a big fan of being the initiator and the girl being the receiver.
IVEY: I’m a believer of the guy doing all the reaching out. But it depends on the girl. If the girl is into being pursued, then she needs to hang back and let herself be pursued.
STEF: But I feel like guys are lazy, and they’re really used to girls being forward.
IVEY: Then I don’t want him. Bye. I will not tolerate that kind of behavior from a guy. I’m not gonna do any of the work. I’m not reaching out, calling.
PUMPKINS: I was sort of raised the same way. A man needs to step up and be a man and do it. I think it comes down to upbringing and even just manners. Maybe it’s my personality or how I was raised, but I’m definitely always the pursuer.
IVEY: I think it’s somewhat instinct. I think men don’t like to be chased—they like to be the ones to pursue. And there’re always the exceptions. I know guys who’ve let the woman call all the shots, and girls who like to call all the shots, but I’ve experienced many times where the girl starts fretting and panicking and calls and texts, and then she scares the guy away.
PEACOCK: But the same exact thing happens from the other angle too.
PUMPKINS: That’s true. [Men] can come off as…well, whatever that comes off as.
“What’re You Waiting For?”
STEF: So who’s supposed to call? Is the guy supposed to call? Is the girl supposed to call? If everyone’s thinking that everyone else is supposed to call—
PEACOCK: This is exactly why you should simply, if you’re interested, you should just say something, period.
PUMPKINS: If you’re interested in somebody, and they’re interested in you, what’re you waiting for?
STEF: But I don’t know if they’re interested in me.
PUMPKINS: Are you interested in them?
STEF: I would think if they were interested in me, they’d be calling me.
PEACOCK: But they’re thinking that if you’re interested in them, maybe you would call them.
IVEY: No, I don’t think guys think that. I feel that if the guy’s interested, he’ll call. Period.
PUMPKINS: Yeah. But if she calls or texts me or whatever, that’s gonna be freaking awesome, ‘cause that’s just one of them things where I was gonna call anyway but hey, what’s up?
PEACOCK: Seriously, if a girl was to go completely old-school dating on me, then I really would not stop at dating. Like if we got into a relationship, I would go extremely old-school on her.
IVEY: How do you go old-school on someone?
STEF: Like making her do the cooking and cleaning.
PEACOCK: At a minimum, yeah. “Hey, I’m doing this tonight with the guys. No, you can’t go out. No, sit here. Do whatever it is you do around the house, and that’s how that is.”
Answer Your Texts
IVEY: What about this scenario: What if you have a date and afterward, you send her a text, and it’s not a text that she needs to reciprocate? Like all it says is, “Had a great time, smiley face.” Is the ball now in her court, or is the guy saying, “I’ve done my reaching out. Done”?
PUMPKINS: That guy sounds like a wimp to me.
IVEY: I agree, but I feel that it’s commonplace now.
PEACOCK: Honestly, wouldn’t it just be general kindness to reply and go, “Yeah, me too”?
PUMPKINS: I think it’s more of a society problem where men have lost their roles of what they are. “You are a man. Pursue, attack, stand up and be a man.” Sure, a woman can do that, but men have gotten weak in that regard.
PEACOCK: But women want to do whatever else men have done for years.
IVEY: Nuh uh. I don’t want to.
PEACOCK: Picture this not over text, all right? Now the date’s over, and I turn to her and go, “Hey, I had a good time tonight.” If she just sat there and didn’t say anything, I’d be like, “Get the fuck out of my car.”
STEF: I enjoy the lack of transition there.
PEACOCK: Sending a text is saying the same thing. What the hell’s the difference? “Oh my God, he said it in written words, I cannot reply.”
STEF: So you get the text, and it’s like, “Had a great time, blah blah blah,” and she responds, “Yeah, me too.” Then what? Then who does something?
PEACOCK: I think the guy would. I think the guy was fishing for an answer in the first place. So if you reply, “Had a good time,” they probably have something to follow up on, and if they didn’t, and two days go by and something comes up on your agenda that you think would be fun that you want to go to with this guy, you have two choices: Shut up and miss out on a good time, or just freaking get in touch with him and be like, “Yo, this is going on, you wanna do this?”
PUMPKINS: Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Never Accept a Saturday Night Date After Wednesday
STEF: How long do you give someone to call you or reach out to you to do the follow-up?
PEACOCK: Probably a max of a business week.
PUMPKINS: It depends on their job, but I think there does need to be some time to digest what just happened. You’re learning about this person, you’re gonna need time to think about it, how you feel about it, and how you want to pursue this. There needs to be some time, but if it’s like a long time—
IVEY: More than a business week?
PEACOCK: Yeah, if it’s more than five days, I’m just like, “Eh.” I write it off.
PUMPKINS: It depends, because if someone’s really busy, they might just flat-out not have time. But if you know someone has plenty of time, and they’re typing on Facebook, “Oh, I’m playing video games for six hours,” then they have time. You’re just not an interest.
IVEY: Yeah, I agree.
PEACOCK: Or you’re just not an interest at that point. I would say a business week is what I would give before I just shut off the feelings and don’t care about it anymore. That’s not to say that if a week later, they got in touch with me and said, “Let’s hang out again” that I wouldn’t do it.
IVEY: Then I’d say no.
PEACOCK: But then you’re just doing that out of spite.
IVEY: Yeah!
PEACOCK: So all you’re doing is ruining possible good times for yourself!
IVEY: No, I’m demonstrating he can’t do that to me and get what he wants.
PEACOCK: So what point does that prove? The guy goes, “Okay, fine, later.”
STEF: Because you’d be setting a pattern if you said, “Yeah, let’s go for it.”
IVEY: Right. If the guy calls three weeks later and wants to do something that night, then I’d say no. Stef knows that I am a believer in not accepting a Saturday night date after Wednesday, so if he calls, and it’s Saturday night, and he says, “Let’s go out tonight,” I’d say no. If he calls on a Tuesday and says, “Saturday night there’s a great show at the blah blah,” then maybe, because he put some thought into it.
PEACOCK: Every situation’s unique though. You could have somebody call you up and be like, “Hey, this just happened, it turns out I’m going here tonight and I thought maybe you’d like to go along.” Now to say no just because it’s that night, you could be missing out on a good time.
STEF: But that invitation is coming three weeks after you last heard from the person. Don’t you think that’s sort of shitty?
IVEY: Don’t you think the guy’s not thinking of her very much? He doesn’t think very highly of her. She’s on the back burner.
PEACOCK: Or he’s not into a serious relationship right now. And I’m not saying that he’s screwing around. It could be possible he went on the date, he enjoyed it, he didn’t see anybody else in the meantime, and now he’s like, “Hey, it’d be nice to spend time with that person again.”
STEF: But I couldn’t be in the forefront of the guy’s mind then, if it’s three weeks later and there was no follow-up until then and he wants to hang out right then.
PEACOCK: I agree to a level but the way that it comes off, “to be the forefront in the guy’s mind,” it’s like, “Jeez, it’s just after the first date…”
STEF: Well, not the forefront, but he couldn’t be that excited about getting something started, and I would find that offensive.
PUMPKINS: I couldn’t see myself doing that.
PEACOCK: Stef, me neither, but I don’t think it’s out of the question.
PUMPKINS: I could see if he needed a long time to digest it, but it stills seems like he might’ve picked up the phone at least to call. You can call somebody and talk to them about going on a date. And if you’re so new to people, there’s so much to talk about.
PEACOCK: That’s what I mean. For the most part, I don’t see that happening, but I’m saying depending on the circumstances… Like Ivey said before, you mentioned as a rule if it’s the same night, you wouldn’t do anything. It’s a pretty good default rule because chances are if he’s calling to do something that night, he’s just looking to get some. But I would, at least, listen to the proposal because that really may not be the case.
Suggest Alternatives, Set Patterns
IVEY: A good test to see if he truly does want to go out with you is to say no and then suggest another date, and if he’s like, “Ehhh, never mind,” he’s not gonna want to accept the future date.
PUMPKINS: That’s a good one, Ivey.
IVEY: That’s how I trick ‘em.
STEF: I feel like [guys] give up too easily in some cases because if the guy’s like, “Wanna hang out tomorrow?” and you’re like, “I can’t,” the guy’s like, “Oh, okay,” but never follows up.
PEACOCK: If I just went on a first date with somebody, and then ask, “Want to go hang out tonight? XYZ’s going on” and she’s like, “No,” it’s possible that I’ll just give up because I barely even know this person. No skin off my back.
IVEY: But, Stef, what you said, I think you need to suggest an alternative. You can’t just be like, “No.” If you are interested and want him to continue pursuing you, you would need to say, “No, but how about Sunday?” or whatever. And he says no to that, then it’s like, whatever.
PUMPKINS: Or you need to find a man with more of a backbone.
PEACOCK: I look at it like a deck of cards. If I just met somebody and we went on one date, and I called them up and they just said “No,” I’d be like, “All right, well, see ya.”
STEF: What it’s not “No”? What if it’s “I can’t, I gotta do blah blah blah” but then she doesn’t offer the follow-up plan? Are you still “whatever”?
PEACOCK: Yeah, because chances are “I have to do blah blah blah” is an excuse.
IVEY: Stef, if a guy asked you out, and you said no and didn’t suggest anything further, does that mean you don’t like them? And if you did like him, wouldn’t you offer an alternative plan?
STEF: It depends. If we had a really good first date, and I was excited about the person and looking forward to seeing them again, and I wanted to be pursued so I didn’t call, and three weeks go by, and he’s not reaching out to me to make plans, but then he calls one day out of the blue and is like, “Hey, let’s do blah blah blah”…
PEACOCK: But at that point, you kinda made that bed yourself. At some point you need to determine what’s more important: to be with somebody you’ll have fun with or to be pursued. So if you’re waiting all this time, and the only reason you’re not reaching out is because you want him to, then you have to just accept the fact that that may not happen, and that’s that.
IVEY: But don’t you also think that she’s making her bed by, say, [accepting a date that comes three weeks after no contact], she’s putting a pattern in place where he doesn’t have to do shit except call you that night and you’re accepting…?
PEACOCK: It’s like 95 percent probably a booty call.
PUMPKINS: That sounds very booty-call-ish.
STEF: Say he calls three weeks later [to hang out]. I’m not going to suggest a follow-up. I’m just gonna say, “No, I can’t, I’m doing this-and-this,” because chances are, I already made plans.
PEACOCK: Then that’s okay, because then you’re just cutting it there. You’re saying, “No, I’m done with this. Leave me alone.”
PUMPKINS: I mean, are we even there? If some guy’s just cuts off after three weeks and he’s not looking to have sex, maybe he’s just not into you or doesn’t think you guys went on a date before.
STEF: That’s exactly why we had to have this conversation! What is a date?!
PUMPKINS: That sounds like something I do with friends. Like, “Hey, wanna go out to eat?” and then several weeks later: “Hey, wanna go out to eat?”
PEACOCK: Five business days.
PUMPKINS: If you’re like really interested in someone, how could you go three weeks after a date and not even want to talk to them? I can’t see that even happening, unless they’re extremely, extremely weak and insecure. You probably want to stay away from that anyway.
IVEY: I agree.
PEACOCK: Right. So five business days.
PUMPKINS: Right. Because people do get busy.
STEF: But guys, according to He’s Just Not That Into You, no matter how busy he is, he’s gonna reach out to you. Like [the author] is like, “If I were on my death bed, I’d be calling my wife.”
PEACOCK: Yeah, but that’s on a death bed and that’s a wife. I got a lot of crap going on, I may not be all that concerned on immediately calling back this chick that I met the other night.
STEF: So you couldn’t have been that interested in wanting to get something started with her.
PEACOCK: No, it’s just that right now, my job, my relationship with my friends, what I might be doing after work, or what’s going on at my house, my finances—that’s more important to me right then because this chick may or may not work out, who knows what’s up with that, but this other stuff has to get done now.
STEF: See, if I heard all that, [I’d wonder,] “Why’d you go on a date with me in the first place?” if you’re so damn busy?
PUMPKINS: If I’m really interested in somebody, it’s hard for me to stop thinking about her.
IVEY: Awww.
PEACOCK: My God, am I the only one on this call with a set of testicles?
PUMPKINS: I hate the whole having-to-wait-blah-blah-blah. I’m gonna do what I want.
PEACOCK: Yeah, I’m just gonna do what fits.
PUMPKINS: It’s seems like on a date, you would’ve talked about how you’re busy, especially if you were interested in talking to this person again.
IVEY: Like Peacock says, he gives you the itinerary of explaining why he’s so busy and “Oh, maybe this day,” then that’s okay.
PEACOCK: That’s true. I’m taking it from my perspective. But outside of the example that I gave, yeah: If you don’t hear from him in five [business] days, just bounce.
PUMPKINS: Because really in the beginning, you’re not even really losing that much because you don’t really have anything yet.
Dating A Friend: No Backsies
STEF: What if all this was happening with a friend?
PEACOCK: There’s no extended dating period with a friend. Because the extended dating period with a newbie is the fact that you’re getting to know them. If you’re friends with somebody, you should know them to a certain kind of deep level, and then—
IVEY: You cross the line.
PEACOCK: Right, you just decide when you’re gonna play your hand and when you’re not, and that’s a date, and after that, you’re either doing it, in a relationship, or there goes the friendship.
IVEY: Yeah, you can’t go back from that, right?
PEACOCK: You could try, and over time, you might be able to, but not immediately.
PUMPKINS: It’d just be weird.
STEF: So what you’re saying is if you have one date with an already established friend, after that date, you have to decide whether or not you’re in a relationship?
IVEY: It’s usually not a date, though, where you cross the line with a friend. It’s usually physical. Don’t you think so? It’s not like you’re out getting sushi and suddenly, one gaze and you know! It almost never happens that way, where it’s two friends, and then suddenly the guy is like, “We’re making this official! This next outing will be a date!” and then he shows up with his carnations and his heart-shaped box of chocolates at the door. It usually goes from friends to more in a physical way before anything else.
PEACOCK: That usually happens when you’re hanging out at someone’s house, and it’s late, and everyone’s drunk, and you’re like, “Fuck it, I’m just gonna do this.”
IVEY: Right. I think that’s more common. Then where do you go from there? That is where there’s no going back.
PEACOCK: Right, there’s no backsies.
PUMPKINS: [Stef,] if this is a real-life example [we’re talking about now], I think you might need to toss any idea of a relationship out the window!
STEF: Why would you think that all my questions are not hypothetical?!
PEACOCK: Because every answer is, “I don’t know! I’m just thinking about it.”
PUMPKINS: Because it’s been solid examples for the past forty minutes.
STEF: No! Oh my God, don’t lie.
PEACOCK: I mean, seriously, if I’m sitting here, going, “Wow, I really don’t have an opinion on it right now,” it’s because I’m trying to think of which direction I want to go in, who’s advice I wanna take.
STEF: I’m a Libra, I have trouble making decisions.
No More Wasting Time
STEF: I was just saying that if I’m on a date with a guy and he’s saying, “Oh, I’m gonna be so busy,” I’m going to be thinking, “Am I getting the brush-off here?”
PUMPKINS: He might just be saying that he’s busy.
PEACOCK: One thing you have to take for granted is the fact that a lot of guys are not like women, so we actually say what’s on our mind or what we mean. So you should put a little more faith and value in the words that come out of our mouths because chances are, they’re the exact words that are on our brains.
STEF: I feel like that’s not true. I feel like I’ve known most guys do not say what they mean.
PEACOCK: Where do you live?!
PUMPKINS: It’s this alternate reality of men with no backbones.
IVEY: And roses in their closets.
STEF: That guy was straightforward. Let’s give him some credit.
PUMPKINS: He had some balls: “In my house, making this, going in for the kiss, giving a rose…”
STEF: Absolutely. I definitely commend him on that. And I think there’s some girl out there that’s gonna be super into that, so it’s totally just a preference.
IVEY: Are you not into it when a guy is very upfront about his intentions and feelings? Does it scare you off, or do you want a guy to do that? Just the right guy.
STEF: Yeah, I think that’s certainly the case. There are some things that I have been creeped out by, but only because I wasn’t into [the guy doing them].
PEACOCK: Most guys just say what’s on their mind though.
STEF: That’s the healthy way to operate, if you want to get anything done.
PUMPKINS: I think once you start reaching your late twenties, you start to feel like, “I’m sick of wasting time. I’m gonna say what’s on my mind.”
PEACOCK: My time is actually worth money now! So if it’s gonna be wasted on this person who’s just like, floating around and stuff, it’s like, “All right, you know what? I still have that life to live and stuff, so I’m gonna go do this now, but holla, I guess.”
IVEY: I feel like girls need to behave the same way. If a guy’s gonna dick around, then it’s like, “Peace out, no thanks.”
PEACOCK: Yeah, if you take all the rational things from men and put them in women, I think that’d be awesome.
IVEY: No, but if he’s waiting ten business days to call me, then he’s only going to make me wait ten business days in a relationship. That’s why you set the pattern in the beginning by making the man do all the work, because then he’ll do all the work in the relationship!
PUMPKINS: Wow.
PEACOCK: I look at dating the same way I do as work, because it is work. It’s not fun until you hit a relationship. If I call a new vendor at work to try out a new product, and I don’t get a hold of him, and I leave that voicemail, and then I don’t hear from him for two weeks, you know what? I’m not really that interested anymore. Same thing for women.
PUMPKINS: I think that time to digest the date really is important.
IVEY: I do too.
PUMPKINS: So should we call it a night then?
STEF: I think so.
PUMPKINS: Stef thinks so, so let it be written.
IVEY: That’s our conclusion?
PUMPKINS: Everyone, thank you for listening!
# # #
More podcast anecdotes and transcripts to come! In the meantime, throw in your two pence: What constitutes a date?
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